davidmartin,
If you look at the Unicode Greek* extracted from the edition of Der Dialog des Adamantius, edited by W. H. van de Sande Bakhuyzen (pub. 1901), you will find all these "goods" to be forms of ἀγαθὸς (agathos, "good"). The Greek Dialogue does not call Jesus or God Χρηστος (Chrestos).
The term καταχρηστικῶς (katachrHstikos, a technical term in Grammar, applied to the use of a word in a derived or metaphorical sense) is used by Eutropius the moderator, and both the moderator and Adamantius use the term χρηστὰ (chrHsta, "useful, good of its kind, serviceable") when arguing their points about whether the creator god is same or different than the "good" god spoken of by Christ. Forms of the word Χριστὸς ("Christ") are used fairly often (over 200x) by all parties in this debate.
Looks like your English translation is the one by Daniel Jon Mahar (c.2000), an independent amateur scholar who has pushed ISU as name of Jesus and the idea that he was known as Isu Chrestos. I assume this website has his permission to display his translation.
https://marcionite-scripture.info/dialogues.htm
The only other English translation I am aware of is translated by Robert A Pretty, Adamantius: Dialogue on the True Faith in God (De Recta in Deum Fide), Peeters, c.1997. He claims to have compared Bakhuyzen's Greek edition to Rufinus's Latin translation. I do not have access to Rufinus' Latin translation at the moment, but that can be rectified.
While I do not believe the publisher (Peeters, the copyright holder) has turned this translation over to the public domain, I had bought a remaindered copy and it may be available in a larger public or academic library. Otherwise it will be hard to find a copy for sale. Lets just say it is VERY different than Mahar's.**
DCH
* **
If you look at the Unicode Greek* extracted from the edition of Der Dialog des Adamantius, edited by W. H. van de Sande Bakhuyzen (pub. 1901), you will find all these "goods" to be forms of ἀγαθὸς (agathos, "good"). The Greek Dialogue does not call Jesus or God Χρηστος (Chrestos).
The term καταχρηστικῶς (katachrHstikos, a technical term in Grammar, applied to the use of a word in a derived or metaphorical sense) is used by Eutropius the moderator, and both the moderator and Adamantius use the term χρηστὰ (chrHsta, "useful, good of its kind, serviceable") when arguing their points about whether the creator god is same or different than the "good" god spoken of by Christ. Forms of the word Χριστὸς ("Christ") are used fairly often (over 200x) by all parties in this debate.
Looks like your English translation is the one by Daniel Jon Mahar (c.2000), an independent amateur scholar who has pushed ISU as name of Jesus and the idea that he was known as Isu Chrestos. I assume this website has his permission to display his translation.
https://marcionite-scripture.info/dialogues.htm
The only other English translation I am aware of is translated by Robert A Pretty, Adamantius: Dialogue on the True Faith in God (De Recta in Deum Fide), Peeters, c.1997. He claims to have compared Bakhuyzen's Greek edition to Rufinus's Latin translation. I do not have access to Rufinus' Latin translation at the moment, but that can be rectified.
While I do not believe the publisher (Peeters, the copyright holder) has turned this translation over to the public domain, I had bought a remaindered copy and it may be available in a larger public or academic library. Otherwise it will be hard to find a copy for sale. Lets just say it is VERY different than Mahar's.**
DCH
* **
Der Dialog des Adamantius: περὶ τῆς εἰς θεὸν ὀρθῆς πίστεως - De recta in deum fide (olim sub auctore Origene Adamantio) (Edited by W. H. van de Sande Bakhuyzen, 1901) | Pseudo-Origen: The Dialogues of Adamantius against the Marcionites, Daniel Mahar 2000 https://marcionite-scripture.info/dialogues.htm | Robert A Pretty, Adamantius: Dialogue on the True Faith in God (De Recta in Deum Fide), Peeters, c.1997. |
|---|---|---|
| {ΜΕΓΕΘΙΟΣ.} Προλαβὼν ὁ ἀδελφὸς Ἀδαμάντιος τὸν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ λόγον ἐποιήσατο· | (Section I ). Meg. Preventing brother Adamantius, he has deceitfully depicted my opinion. | (De la Rue 803/Caspari I,1) MEGETHIUS Brother Adamantius has taken the words out of my mouth. |
| οἴδαμεν γὰρ καὶ ἡμεῖς ὅτι ἡ πίστις πάντων διαφέρει καὶ ἡ ὀρθὴ εἰς θεὸν δόξα. | Indeed you confess like ourselves concerning the faith and virtue of God, | We also realize that faith in God and a right understanding of Him are of supreme importance. |
| χρὴ οὖν τὸν δικαστὴν ἐπακούσαντα ἀμφοτέρων δοκιμάσαι ἐν τίνι ἐστὶν ἡ ἀληθὴς καὶ δικαία πίστις | of the opinion of exhibiting all good things, if another one is good in a civilized matter. | The adjudicator then must listen to both sides, and determine which holds the true and correct faith. |
| **** [This is a section that Rufinus’ Latin translation had added to the Greek account] | And therefore it is most beneficial that you, Eutropius, most excellent Judge, are seated in the midst of us, whom I commend as capable of setting forth our proper and true faith (and whom I esteem as fittingly wise for this, and a highly educated man). | [Pretty paraphrases what Rufinus added in his Latin translation: “I think the learned and experienced Eutropius (is) eminently suited for this position.”] |
| δείξω γὰρ ὅτι μᾶλλον βλασφημεῖτε τὸν θεὸν ἤπερ δοξάζετε, | For I may demonstrate that you, Adamantius, blaspheme more than you believe in God, | On my side I will show, Adamantius, that you and your party defame rather the honour of God, |
| καὶ τὸν μὲν ἀληθινὸν θεόν, ὄντα ἀγαθόν, γνωρίζειν οὐ θέλετε, | when the true God, who is only good, you are unwilling to recognize, | and that you are not concerned to make the really good God known. |
| ἕτερον δὲ ἀντὶ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ δοξάζειν βούλεσθε, | but rather another, certain one you submit in place of the good God, | You intend to honour another God instead of the true One. |
| λέγοντος τοῦ Χριστοῦ· <οὐδεὶς ἀγαθὸς εἰ μὴ εἷς, ὁ πατήρ>. | although the Lord Jesus Christ himself declared, "No one is good, except one, God the Father". | But Christ says, “No one is good, except One – The Father”. |
Statistics: Posted by DCHindley — Sat Jan 27, 2024 11:45 pm