Going back to Hegesippus' Hebrew or Aramaic skills, the Hebrew word that Eusebius claims Hegesippus paraphrased as "Oblias" (ὠβλίας), would appear to be the Hebrew verb " יָבַל " (yabal) to bring, carry, lead, conduct. The Greek word I'd expect would be ὁδηγήσει (hodegesei). Yet Eusebius said the transliterated word "Oblias" conveyed the meaning "περιοχὴ" (periokhE), a containing, enclosing. The actual Hebrew word for an idea of a defensive edifice would be something like " מְצוּרָה " (mesura) stronghold.
This does not make any sense at first. I have read many an attempt to explain what Hegesippus meant by "Oblias," and if one were to ask me, they all have problems.
Matti Myllykosk, ‘James the Just in History and Tradition' Pt 1, (Currents in Biblical Research 2006, 5.1, 73-122)
http://cbi.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/5/1/73
Matti Myllykosk, ‘James the Just in History and Tradition' Pt 2 (Currents in Biblical Research, 2007, 6.1.11-98)
http://cbi.sagepub.com/content/6/1/11
So, I get this unthinkable thought, "what if this was refrencing a passage from Hebrew holy writings that contained both words, and Hegesippus (or Eusebius) confused these words?"
Here is what Eusebius quotes or paraphrases Hegesippus as saying:
History of the Church 2.23.7:
Figuring I better start with Greek LXX/OG, I looked up use of περιοχὴ alone but was not getting anywhere in other places in Eusebius (at least the works covered by the Perseus.org databases) or Josephus, so I also searched that word in BibleWorks 8 LXX (Rahlfs). As I started to step through the list of 25 hits, I got to LXX Psalm 59:11 (60:09 in RSV and Hebrew WTT = LXX Psalm 107:11/108:10 in RSV/108:11 WTT), and found something that I consider interesting.
There is was, in the Hebrew, yobileni & masor together in the same verse. I quickly stepped through the other search hits to see if there were others, and only returned the duplicate psalm in WTT 108.11. This might be the solution for how Hegesippus came up with "Oblias:" He had a source in Hebrew which cited Psalm 108:11 but could not read the Hebrew. He took a stab at it, using what little Aramaic he had picked up (but was primarily fluent in Greek), and he selected the wrong word, "yobileni" instead of "masor."
But how would this have anything to do with Hegesippus' account of the death of James the Just? What exactly did he think he had in front of him? What did he actually have in front of him? I am more inclined to think he had some document about someone named Jakob that had quoted this Psalm, upon which he used to construct his account of the death of James the Just, than that he himself spun the James death account off of this Psalm on his own. The document was apparently bilingual (Hebrew or Aramaic with Greek), unless his Hebrew/Aramaic was better than I gave him credit for.
While I think I have identified a candidate for the subject of this document Hegesippus used, and have posted my findings elsewhere on this and other boards, I'll summarize for good or ill. You see, I think Hegesippus was a mere storyteller. He kept notebooks as he traveled on his patron's business in Asia Minor, Syria & Rome, and liked to discuss early Christian traditions with the local bishops & presbyters he met wherever he went. Later in life, he would have "put these in order" (as writers did then) and published them for the edification of the saints. He may have accumulated a large collection of such notes, and perhaps curios he obtained from booksellers he encountered as he passed through. He, at least, thought they were relevant to James the Just of Christian tradition. He may have just been mistaken, or he was only interested in telling a good story. At least he didn't add any cheesy characters like "Scar" in Mystery of Mar Saba.
What I ultimately concluded he actually had in front of him was a trial transcript of the trial of a Jakob all right, but not Jakob the Just of Christian tradition supposedly tried in early 60s CE of Ant 20:200 as if it actually referred to him. It may have been on a public billboard in a market when the Romans took control. Soldiers taking souvenirs, shocking ... then they end up in the bookseller's shops, the kind that sell anything to make a few obols. I'm sure Hegesippus thought he had James the Just's actual transcript, from the trial mentioned in Ant 20:200, as there was a Jesus, a Jacob, and Ananus of course. "What else could it be?" he asks rhetorically, apparently unaware of War 4 & War 6 where the Idumean story was given.
This fellow tried in the document was apparently Jakob an Idumean commander in charge of several troops of Idumean soldiers that was formerly serving Simon bar Giora. He had tried to negotiate surrender on terms with the Romans, at least one of his messengers were intercepted by Simon's other troops, and he and his co-commanders were all arrested for treason by Simon in 70 CE, just before Jerusalem fell to the Romans. He disappears from the record after his arrest, but I have to assume that there had been a trial, where Jacob had to "confess" his sins before execution.
Before Simon was even in Jerusalem in the final year or so, Jacob and four other Idumean commanders had responded to an invitation to participate in the revolt by a representative of the the rebel faction who had made the arduous trek to Idumea's main town to deliver the invitation.
The key factors were speeches given from the city wall by HP Ananus and his 2nd in command, a certain chief priest named Jesus. Ananus had ordered the gates closed to the Idumeans, and announced over the wall that "You are not welcome unless you check your weapons at the gate." They took offense.
When they didn't get the message, then Jesus the 2nd in command stood at the top of the wall and belittled the Idumeans below as second class Judeans and not worthy to participate, being nothing more than an unruly mob. As the Idumeans seethed in anger, there was a fierce rainstorm and the Idumeans were soaked to the bone, and almost left, before some sappers from the rebel ranks overcame Ananus' guards and opened the gate.
The enraged Idumeans poured in and sought out Ananus and Jesus, and summarily killed them for their contemptuous speeches against them. Their dead bodies were thrown off the wall into the valley below, and people were forbidden to try to retrieve their bodies for burial.
Only later did he and his fellow Idumean commanders transfer loyalty to the last leader of the rebels in the holy city, Simon bar Giora, where they served as Simon's armed enforcers and troops that fought his rivals for full control of the city.
Simon, from what I hear,* fancied himself a "son of man." In the trial, he would be mocked ""Ha! Maybe Jesus the second ranking HP was right about you and your kind after all!" and was likely compelled to say "I see the son of man (Simon) coming on the clouds of glory (as God's chosen king, followed by god's angels)" (maybe to save his spouse/children/unit-commanders).
I have compared this to one E.T. of a formally published transcript of one of the most notable show trials ever, that of Bakunin (drafter of the Soviet constitution) before the Judges appointed by Joseph Stalin. He was made to say "Yeah, I'm a stinker, Joe was right, I fully expect to be executed for my haughtiness in opposing him. I wish Mr. Stalin the best." He really said stuff like this!
DCH
*(Riegel, John I & John H Jordan) Simon Son of Man (1917). More than slightly kooky, but interesting. I have looked at the Aramaic** they give to show how "Giora" was not his real name (perhaps Josephus' attempt to smear his name), but a pun on the terms he used of himself, "son of man" (as in average human being) who just happened to be chosen by God to effect a new world order. Simon was a humble megalomaniac, but so was Stalin. R & J proposed that the Jesus story of the Gospels was told with some details borrowed from Simon bar Giora's career, projected back in time. Uh oh, another time shift scenario! <aarrgghh!>
**viewtopic.php?p=42686#p42686
This does not make any sense at first. I have read many an attempt to explain what Hegesippus meant by "Oblias," and if one were to ask me, they all have problems.
Matti Myllykosk, ‘James the Just in History and Tradition' Pt 1, (Currents in Biblical Research 2006, 5.1, 73-122)
http://cbi.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/5/1/73
Matti Myllykosk, ‘James the Just in History and Tradition' Pt 2 (Currents in Biblical Research, 2007, 6.1.11-98)
http://cbi.sagepub.com/content/6/1/11
So, I get this unthinkable thought, "what if this was refrencing a passage from Hebrew holy writings that contained both words, and Hegesippus (or Eusebius) confused these words?"
Here is what Eusebius quotes or paraphrases Hegesippus as saying:
History of the Church 2.23.7:
7) Because of his exceeding great justice | 7) διά γέ τοι τὴν ὑπερβολὴν τῆς δικαιοσύνης αὐτοῦ |
|---|---|
| he was called the just, | ἐκαλεῖτο ὁ δίκαιος |
| and oblias, | καὶ ὠβλίας, |
| which in Greek signifies a bulwark of the people, | ὅ ἐστιν Ἑλληνιστὶ περιοχὴ τοῦ λαοῦ, |
| and justice, | καὶ δικαιοσύνη, |
| in accordance with what the prophets declare concerning him. (From “and oblias” to end, an allusion to Isaiah 3:10?) | ὡς οἱ προφῆται δηλοῦσιν περὶ αὐτοῦ. (From “and oblias” to end, an allusion Isaiah 3:10 Lxx?) |
Figuring I better start with Greek LXX/OG, I looked up use of περιοχὴ alone but was not getting anywhere in other places in Eusebius (at least the works covered by the Perseus.org databases) or Josephus, so I also searched that word in BibleWorks 8 LXX (Rahlfs). As I started to step through the list of 25 hits, I got to LXX Psalm 59:11 (60:09 in RSV and Hebrew WTT = LXX Psalm 107:11/108:10 in RSV/108:11 WTT), and found something that I consider interesting.
LXX Psalm 59:11 | Brenton Psalm 60:9 | WTT Psalm 60:11 (transliterated) | RSV Psalm 60:9 |
|---|---|---|---|
| τίς ἀπάξει με | Who will lead me | mi yobileni | Who will bring me |
| εἰς πόλιν περιοχῆς | into the fortified city? | `ir masor | to the fortified city? |
| τίς ὁδηγήσει με | who will guide me | mi nahani | Who will lead me |
| ἕως τῆς Ιδουμαίας | as far as Idumea? | `ad-´edom | to Edom? |
There is was, in the Hebrew, yobileni & masor together in the same verse. I quickly stepped through the other search hits to see if there were others, and only returned the duplicate psalm in WTT 108.11. This might be the solution for how Hegesippus came up with "Oblias:" He had a source in Hebrew which cited Psalm 108:11 but could not read the Hebrew. He took a stab at it, using what little Aramaic he had picked up (but was primarily fluent in Greek), and he selected the wrong word, "yobileni" instead of "masor."
But how would this have anything to do with Hegesippus' account of the death of James the Just? What exactly did he think he had in front of him? What did he actually have in front of him? I am more inclined to think he had some document about someone named Jakob that had quoted this Psalm, upon which he used to construct his account of the death of James the Just, than that he himself spun the James death account off of this Psalm on his own. The document was apparently bilingual (Hebrew or Aramaic with Greek), unless his Hebrew/Aramaic was better than I gave him credit for.
While I think I have identified a candidate for the subject of this document Hegesippus used, and have posted my findings elsewhere on this and other boards, I'll summarize for good or ill. You see, I think Hegesippus was a mere storyteller. He kept notebooks as he traveled on his patron's business in Asia Minor, Syria & Rome, and liked to discuss early Christian traditions with the local bishops & presbyters he met wherever he went. Later in life, he would have "put these in order" (as writers did then) and published them for the edification of the saints. He may have accumulated a large collection of such notes, and perhaps curios he obtained from booksellers he encountered as he passed through. He, at least, thought they were relevant to James the Just of Christian tradition. He may have just been mistaken, or he was only interested in telling a good story. At least he didn't add any cheesy characters like "Scar" in Mystery of Mar Saba.
What I ultimately concluded he actually had in front of him was a trial transcript of the trial of a Jakob all right, but not Jakob the Just of Christian tradition supposedly tried in early 60s CE of Ant 20:200 as if it actually referred to him. It may have been on a public billboard in a market when the Romans took control. Soldiers taking souvenirs, shocking ... then they end up in the bookseller's shops, the kind that sell anything to make a few obols. I'm sure Hegesippus thought he had James the Just's actual transcript, from the trial mentioned in Ant 20:200, as there was a Jesus, a Jacob, and Ananus of course. "What else could it be?" he asks rhetorically, apparently unaware of War 4 & War 6 where the Idumean story was given.
This fellow tried in the document was apparently Jakob an Idumean commander in charge of several troops of Idumean soldiers that was formerly serving Simon bar Giora. He had tried to negotiate surrender on terms with the Romans, at least one of his messengers were intercepted by Simon's other troops, and he and his co-commanders were all arrested for treason by Simon in 70 CE, just before Jerusalem fell to the Romans. He disappears from the record after his arrest, but I have to assume that there had been a trial, where Jacob had to "confess" his sins before execution.
Before Simon was even in Jerusalem in the final year or so, Jacob and four other Idumean commanders had responded to an invitation to participate in the revolt by a representative of the the rebel faction who had made the arduous trek to Idumea's main town to deliver the invitation.
The key factors were speeches given from the city wall by HP Ananus and his 2nd in command, a certain chief priest named Jesus. Ananus had ordered the gates closed to the Idumeans, and announced over the wall that "You are not welcome unless you check your weapons at the gate." They took offense.
When they didn't get the message, then Jesus the 2nd in command stood at the top of the wall and belittled the Idumeans below as second class Judeans and not worthy to participate, being nothing more than an unruly mob. As the Idumeans seethed in anger, there was a fierce rainstorm and the Idumeans were soaked to the bone, and almost left, before some sappers from the rebel ranks overcame Ananus' guards and opened the gate.
The enraged Idumeans poured in and sought out Ananus and Jesus, and summarily killed them for their contemptuous speeches against them. Their dead bodies were thrown off the wall into the valley below, and people were forbidden to try to retrieve their bodies for burial.
Only later did he and his fellow Idumean commanders transfer loyalty to the last leader of the rebels in the holy city, Simon bar Giora, where they served as Simon's armed enforcers and troops that fought his rivals for full control of the city.
Simon, from what I hear,* fancied himself a "son of man." In the trial, he would be mocked ""Ha! Maybe Jesus the second ranking HP was right about you and your kind after all!" and was likely compelled to say "I see the son of man (Simon) coming on the clouds of glory (as God's chosen king, followed by god's angels)" (maybe to save his spouse/children/unit-commanders).
I have compared this to one E.T. of a formally published transcript of one of the most notable show trials ever, that of Bakunin (drafter of the Soviet constitution) before the Judges appointed by Joseph Stalin. He was made to say "Yeah, I'm a stinker, Joe was right, I fully expect to be executed for my haughtiness in opposing him. I wish Mr. Stalin the best." He really said stuff like this!
DCH
*(Riegel, John I & John H Jordan) Simon Son of Man (1917). More than slightly kooky, but interesting. I have looked at the Aramaic** they give to show how "Giora" was not his real name (perhaps Josephus' attempt to smear his name), but a pun on the terms he used of himself, "son of man" (as in average human being) who just happened to be chosen by God to effect a new world order. Simon was a humble megalomaniac, but so was Stalin. R & J proposed that the Jesus story of the Gospels was told with some details borrowed from Simon bar Giora's career, projected back in time. Uh oh, another time shift scenario! <aarrgghh!>
**viewtopic.php?p=42686#p42686
Statistics: Posted by DCHindley — Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:01 pm