Jewish Texts and History • Re: "The Sources of Celsus's Criticism..."

But are the Marcionites actually witnessed firsthand or through the lens of an orthodox writer?

I will speak in the generic of the "non orthodox" here, as that allows for more of the habits of Celsus to be observed than to remark specifically on "Marcionites," which by its specificity limits what we can draw upon as relevant evidence.

And I will say that it seems to me that Celsus does not encounter the "non orthodox" through the lens of an orthodox writer. Instead, it seems to me that Celsus encountered the so-called "non orthodox" as though they were equally legitimate and valid interpretations of who Christians are, which is a point of view that would not be well represented in writers representing themselves as "orthodox."

Of course, like anyone else, I need to qualify this as saying that I say this based only on the remarks in Origen's Against Celsus, so what I am reading is at one remove and, in general, we need to be aware of the possibility of misrepresentation by Origen. But to the extent that I can answer the question at all, the answer that I see is not: it is gathered second hand by Celsus from "orthodox" writers. Not only do I not see that, as far as I can see, it looks more like the opposite.

Why should Celsus have been any different? Were there really "Marcionites" crawling all over the Empire and Celsus went out and met them and interviewed their leaders and read their books? Don't think so.

To bring it back into the specifics, I don't know whether Celsus met any Marcionites or read any Marcionite books first hand. On the other hand, I can't be sure of the opposite either.

What I do know is that Celsus read "Christian"/"Chrestian" books (at least the gospels). While it is possible that Celsus never had any conversation with a Christian/Chrestian and only knew of them through books, that is an assumption, and I don't assume that. What I don't know is to what extent Celsus gets information at first hand or at second hand, or by word or text or otherwise, in particular instances.

What I do know is that Marcionites were considered / called "Christians"/"Chrestians" in the second century. What I do know is that Origen says Celsus considered "non orthodox" (to Origen) people/opinion to be Christian. What I don't know is to what extent Celsus had interaction with (what we would call) Marcionites, versus other Christians.

What I am not saying is that Celsus should be described as "investigating" anything.

What I certainly don't know is:

That Celsus "investigating" Christianity simply "checked into" a public library and found copies of Justin, the New Testament, perhaps even Irenaeus and this was his main source of information for the True Word/Account.

While there's a lot that I don't know, this is not only not known, but it seems positively unlikely to me, that Celsus got his information exclusively from "orthodox" sources, hearing about the "non orthodox" only through mention in anti-heretical accounts.

Statistics: Posted by Peter Kirby — Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:55 pm

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