Christian Texts and History • Re: 12 Reasons the Paulines are not Marcionite

Peter Kirby's list of 12 Reasons the Paulines are not Marcionite	My objection to a such list
(1) The Marcionite publication of Paul is not a clear and highly supportive brief for Marcionite ideas.	Detering talked about Marcion as a "moderate Paulinist", not a radical one. This may help to mitigate the Kirby's assertion.
(2) The Marcionite publication removed some passages from the letters (a point that many deny).	Well: count myself among the deniers.
(3) Further, the Marcionite publication already has different authors (i.e., Ephesians, 2 Thessalonians, and plausibly Colossians-Philemon), also showing development of a corpus over time.	irrelevant.
(4) As Carrier has pointed out, some Pauline texts such as 2 Corinthians seem to be assembled from parts of previously existing letters, something that would not be seen in an epistolary novel.	Pervo comments that 1 Corinthians was known separately to 1 Clement and that small collections of letters may also have existed. Yet he offers no evidence of the former and is skeptical of the existence of the latter. See Pervo, Making of Paul, 55-56. (source, p. 113, my bold)
(5) The Pauline epistles are innocent of many post-60s or second century trends, such as using the word Christian or using the word gospel in reference to a book, which are attested for Marcionites (Justin 1 Apology 26, Tertullian Against Marcion 4).	at contrary, anti-circumcision as found in the epistles fits well only a post-135 context. In addition, 'gospel' in the epistles is a written document.
(6) Some concerns in the letters such as the gathering of a collection for the poor in Jerusalem (Gal 2, 1 Cor 16, 2 Cor 9, Romans 15) and refuting allegations of being a grifter (1 Cor 9, 1 Thess 2:5), found only in the core collection of Pauline letters (Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Romans, 1 Thessalonians, Philippians) as identified by stylometry, make more sense in a non-fictive setting of an actual organizer with financial concerns involved in real controversies.	Marcion also was an "actual organizer with financial concerns involved in real controversies". But without need of an appeal to Marcion, in Acts we have already a "fictive setting of an actual organizer with financial concerns involved in real controversies". Basically Marcion expanded on Acts. Essentially, external verification is missing to support the Kirby's assertion.
(7) A second century invention of pre-70 setting (1 Cor 9:17) letters would not expect the end of the world so immediately in such a fictive setting (1 Thess 4:17), a point of view already contradicted by the time of the second century. Indeed this very contradiction is noted in later texts (John 21, 2 Peter).	Still curious to find a good objection against this point in the book I am reading.
(8) As Carrier has argued, the concerns in the letters, such as whether circumcision is necessary, just make more sense in the context of the first generation of the movement.	At contrary, just the anti-circumcision fits perfectly the post-135 scenario. In all the pre-70 Jewish documents, circumcision is OK for Jews and proselites (king Izates himself circumcised himself at the end without no problems at all). With all his abstract allegorism, Philo never gave up to the physical circumcision.
(9) Early non-Marcionite Gnostic contemporaries of Marcion such as Basilides (pre-135) are already citing letters of Paul (as quoted from Basilides by Origen, Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans 1015B).	non-Marcionite but post-Marcionite. And in any case the enemy (Basilides) of the your enemy (Catholics) is your (= of Marcion) friend.
(10) Mid second century Valentinians such as Ptolemy and Theodotus also cite Paul explicitly as an authority. It was claimed that Valentinus received teaching from Paul via a certain Theudas (Clement Stromata 7.17).	Banal friendship and common sympathy among anti-demiurgists (and Marcion was one). In addition, Valentinian pieces (celestial crucifixion in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 in primis) are inserted in the epistles. Courtesy of Marcion.
(11) The text of 1 Clement (pre-140, cf. use by Hegesippus and Dionysius of Corinth) and anti-Gnostic texts such as the Ignatiana (140s CE according to T. D. Barnes) are also already referencing the letters of Paul, well outside the orbit of Marcionism.	No wonder: the rabbit was already out of the top hat.
(12) The language of the letters of Paul also seems to have influenced texts that do not cite Paul explicitly, such as Revelation (pre-96), which seems to have had access to a collection of Paulines that included Colossians and Ephesians, given the allusions and the construction of its own set of letters to seven churches.	In addition, the vast distances from one named region to the other — from Rome to a point in Galatia is 2300 km/1430 miles — suggest not the impressive feats of ancient letter carriers but rather a literary trope signifying the “extensive reach” of the message. The seven named regions of the embedded letters of Revelation were long thought to have represented the whole world. (ibid., p. 110. my bold) Turmel and Witulski disagree with a pre-96 date for Revelation, at any case. They argue for a post-135 date of the book.

I haven't had time to go through this to explain why I think you have often underestimated or misunderstood the points to which you are offering responses.

Point (1) by itself is obviously of critical importance.

As Kunigunde correctly recognized, points (1) and (3) are already a strong argument in favor of looking to explanations of the Pauline epistolary literature that involve more than just reference to Marcion's circle.

Point (3) - one of the points you clearly misunderstood or underestimated, replying in one word, "irrelevant" - has received some additional commentary here:

viewtopic.php?t=13126

Points (1) and (2) obviously deserve additional consideration. Perhaps someone else can take some time to explore these points. Or I may return to them later.

I may eventually be able to discuss the other points more also.

Statistics: Posted by Peter Kirby — Sat Jan 11, 2025 3:34 pm

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