.
I believe that most members have much more knowledge and understanding than I do on the question of HJ or MJ. I haven't even read Carrier's book. The question of HJ or MJ doesn't really interest me either. Nevertheless, I have come to the conclusion that agnosticism should be the preferred position and after a short introduction I just want to give my personal opinion on the matter. You can ignore this if you like. I don’t want to argue any further or prove anything. It's not particularly important either.
Intro - Cephas
I personally believe that there was a historical Cephas, who was also called Peter, especially later in the Christian tradition. I have no evidence for this. My assumption is based solely on what seems most likely to me after an overall assessment of the known writings. I consider almost all of the writings to be legendary fictions. I have no idea whether at least in GMark anything can be traced back to the historical Cephas. To be on the safe side, I rule that out. In the end, I only consider Paul's letters to be somewhat trustworthy. But Paul's extremely subjective assessment must be taken into account.
Jesus
Something similar applies to Jesus. I ultimately reject all writings as mere theological stories and ask only what is the oldest layer of storytelling that is tangible to me. The safest choice seems to me to be 1 Thessalonians. Perhaps there is also an older writing than 1 Thessalonians, perhaps 1 Thessalonians is not a original letter of Paul at all. All of these are not impossible. But ultimately 1 Thessalonians is the safest choice and anyone who says otherwise is speculating more than I am.
The message of 1 Thessalonians is comparatively simple and "primitive" compared to other writings. Imho the theological level is not very high.
In this scheme, Jesus appears on a religious-historical level as an additional condition, a sleight of hand by an exclusive group that is trying to distance itself from Judaism from which it originated. The message is: salvation does not come in rather traditional Judaism, but through the Lord, whom we proclaim. And the Gentiles are all lost anyway. Therefore, you must join our group if you want to be saved.
I have no problem accepting 1 Thessalonians 2:15 as authentic. The level of theological fiction also seems to me to be much lower than in claims about the "archons of this world", whatever they may be. 1 Thessalonians 2:15 is of course not a factual report, but an apologetic statement. Nevertheless, Jesus' death is compared here with the deaths of the prophets and his murderers appear to be human beings.
After all and despite all the theological fiction, the chances are not so bad that in the oldest tradition Jesus was considered a human being before his death. Let's say 50 percent.
The whole consideration ends here and I do not believe that - except for newly discovered writings - there is any possibility of accessing an even older layer or drawing further conclusions. Of course, everyone thinks they can do that. But the sober truth seems to me that it simply ends here, without a final answer.
I believe that most members have much more knowledge and understanding than I do on the question of HJ or MJ. I haven't even read Carrier's book. The question of HJ or MJ doesn't really interest me either. Nevertheless, I have come to the conclusion that agnosticism should be the preferred position and after a short introduction I just want to give my personal opinion on the matter. You can ignore this if you like. I don’t want to argue any further or prove anything. It's not particularly important either.
Intro - Cephas
I personally believe that there was a historical Cephas, who was also called Peter, especially later in the Christian tradition. I have no evidence for this. My assumption is based solely on what seems most likely to me after an overall assessment of the known writings. I consider almost all of the writings to be legendary fictions. I have no idea whether at least in GMark anything can be traced back to the historical Cephas. To be on the safe side, I rule that out. In the end, I only consider Paul's letters to be somewhat trustworthy. But Paul's extremely subjective assessment must be taken into account.
Jesus
Something similar applies to Jesus. I ultimately reject all writings as mere theological stories and ask only what is the oldest layer of storytelling that is tangible to me. The safest choice seems to me to be 1 Thessalonians. Perhaps there is also an older writing than 1 Thessalonians, perhaps 1 Thessalonians is not a original letter of Paul at all. All of these are not impossible. But ultimately 1 Thessalonians is the safest choice and anyone who says otherwise is speculating more than I am.
The message of 1 Thessalonians is comparatively simple and "primitive" compared to other writings. Imho the theological level is not very high.
- Live a morally decent life, that pleases God.
- There will soon be a divine judgment on this world.
- No one can say exactly when it will happen, but it will come upon us like a thief in the night.
- Few will be saved and even attain eternal life.
- Salvation is only through the Lord Jesus Christ.
- Use this last chance and believe in him.
In this scheme, Jesus appears on a religious-historical level as an additional condition, a sleight of hand by an exclusive group that is trying to distance itself from Judaism from which it originated. The message is: salvation does not come in rather traditional Judaism, but through the Lord, whom we proclaim. And the Gentiles are all lost anyway. Therefore, you must join our group if you want to be saved.
I have no problem accepting 1 Thessalonians 2:15 as authentic. The level of theological fiction also seems to me to be much lower than in claims about the "archons of this world", whatever they may be. 1 Thessalonians 2:15 is of course not a factual report, but an apologetic statement. Nevertheless, Jesus' death is compared here with the deaths of the prophets and his murderers appear to be human beings.
After all and despite all the theological fiction, the chances are not so bad that in the oldest tradition Jesus was considered a human being before his death. Let's say 50 percent.
The whole consideration ends here and I do not believe that - except for newly discovered writings - there is any possibility of accessing an even older layer or drawing further conclusions. Of course, everyone thinks they can do that. But the sober truth seems to me that it simply ends here, without a final answer.
Statistics: Posted by Kunigunde Kreuzerin — Mon Dec 02, 2024 2:55 am