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Christian Texts and History • That Last Hand Almost Killed Me

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hx4gdlfamo

JW:

Just for you spin. I wouldn't do this for anyone else:

Description Character Anecdotes
Honi (Onias) the Circle-Drawer
AJ 14.22-25 (14.2.1-2)
Now there was a certain Onias, who, being a righteous man and dear to God, had once in a rainless period prayed to God to end the drought, and God had heard his prayer and sent rain; this man hid himself when he saw that the civil war continued to rage, but he was taken to the camp of the Jews and was asked to place a curse on Aristobulus and his fellow-rebels, just as he had, by his prayers, put an end to the rainless period. But when in spite of his refusals and excuses he was forced to speak by the mob, he stood up in their midst and said, "O God, king of the universe, since these men standing beside me are Thy people, and those who are besieged are Thy priests, I beseech Thee not to hearken to them against these men nor to bring to pass what these men ask Thee to do to those others." And when he had prayed in this manner the villains among the Jews who stood round him stoned him to death...
Righteous1. Prayed for rain and it rained.
2. Refused to curse his fellow Jews.
Judas the Essene
BJ 1.78-81 (1.3.4)
Another feature of this case which may well excite astonishment was the conduct of Judas. He was of Essene extraction, and his predictions had never once proved erroneous or false. On this occasion, seeing Antigonus passing through the court of the temple, he exclaimed to his acquaintances — a considerable number of his disciples were seated beside him — "Ah me! now were I better dead, since truth has died before me and one of my prophecies has been falsified. For yonder is Antigonus alive, who ought to have been slain to-day. The place predestined for his murder was Strato's Tower, and that is 600 furlongs from here; and it is already the fourth hour of the day. So time frustrates the prophecy." Having said this, the old man remained plunged in gloomy meditation. A little later came the news that Antigonus had been slain in the underground quarter, also called, like the maritime Caesarea, Strato's Tower. It was this identity of names which had disconcerted the seer.
PropheticAntigonus slain
Menahem the Essene
AJ 15.373-379 (15.10.5)
There was a certain Essene named Manaémus, whose virtue was attested in his whole conduct of life and especially in his having from God a foreknowledge of the future. This man had (once) observed Herod, then still a boy, going to his teacher, and greeted him as "king of the Jews." Thereupon Herod, who thought that the man either did not know who he was, or was teasing him, reminded him that he was only a private citizen. Manaémus, however, gently smiled and slapped him on the backside, saying, "Nevertheless, you will be king and you will rule? the realm happily, for you have been found worthy of this by God. And you shall remember the blows given by Manaémus, so that they, too, may be for you a symbol of how one's fortune can change. For the best attitude for you to take would be to love justice and piety toward God and mildness toward your citizens. But I know that you will not be such a person, since I understand the whole situation. Now you will be singled out for such good fortune as no other man has had, and you will enjoy eternal glory, but you will forget piety and justice. This, however, cannot escape the notice of God, and at the close of your life His wrath will show that He is mindful of these things." At the moment Herod paid very little attention to his words, for he was quite lacking in such hopes, but after gradually being advanced to kingship and good fortune, when he was at the height of his power, he sent for Manaémus and questioned him about the length of time he would reign. Manaémus said nothing at all. In the face of his silence Herod asked further whether he had ten years more to reign, and the other replied that he had twenty or even thirty, but he did not set a limit to the appointed time. Herod, however, was satisfied even with this answer and dismissed Manaémus with a friendly gesture. And from that time on he continued to hold all Essenes in honour. Now we have seen fit to report these things to our readers, however incredible they may seem, and to reveal what has taken place among us because many of these men have indeed been vouchsafed a knowledge of divine things because of their virtue.
ForeknowledgeSaid Herod would be King
Jesus
18.63-64 (18.3.3)
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
Wise manNo individual supporting anecdote

Observations:

1) The general style of the time was to provide anecdotes that supported the presented character of the subject. Lots of examples could be shown.

2) More important is the individual style of the author. Josephus follows the style of 1) in the undisputed writings above.

3) John the Baptist story is different than the above in that the primary subject is the defeat of Herod's army. John the Baptist is secondary as the cause.

4) The Jesus story above is different in every way:
  • 1. Lots of positive characteristics but none of them virtue or prophecy.
    2. Lots of group anecdotes but no single ones.
    3. Combination of greatest endorsement and smallest amount of words.
Hold on spin, my record keeps skipping "what Origen wrote Josephus should have said".

The above is Intrinsic Internal evidence regarding how it was said which suggests that it is not original. More important was what was said and that is even stronger evidence against originality. spin is of course right that the style of presentation has been under covered in the related dispute and is further evidence of addition.


Joseph

PROPHECY, n. The art and practice of selling one's credibility for future delivery.

The New Porphyry

Statistics: Posted by JoeWallack — Sun Nov 17, 2024 5:21 pm



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