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Christian Texts and History • Re: Isaac M. Wise on Jesus

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Isaac M. Wise wrote
History of the Hebrews' second commonwealth:
with special reference to its literature, culture, and the origin of Rabbinism and Christianity
Isaac Mayer Wise
1880
English Book 3 preliminary leaves, 386 pages ; 23 cm
Cincinnati: Bloch & Co.
available online

Someone here quoted a snippet including the word "perhaps" and went on to presume that Jesus did not exist.
If I recall correctly, that was maryhelena.
Did maryhelena go on to tell that the book went on to deal repeatedly with Jesus as historical?
No?
What gives Stephen - the local Eusebius fan club got the better of you - and now you want to take your frustration out on me - ah, Stephen, but I'm not easy pickings.....


The revisionist view that Jews put forward, largely based on
jewish and Christian scholarship in Germany, stressed that Jesus
was born a Jew and remained one throughout his life. He was,
Isaac Mayer Wise insisted in 1888, "an enthusiastic and thoroughly
Jewish patriot, who fully understood the questions of his age and
the problems of his people, and felt the invincible desire to solve
them." Wise had by then discarded his earlier doubts as to whether
Jesus existed
and had determined that Christianity's founder was
actually a "Pharisean doctor of the Hillel School."

https://www.brandeis.edu/hornstein/sarn ... merica.pdf

It seems that at one time Rabbi Wise had doubts as to whether Jesus existed. His quote, referenced above, from 1880, indicates that he was aware of some connection between the execution of the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus II Mattathias, and the gospel Jesus crucified story.

That Rabbi Wise later 'discarded his earlier doubts' regarding the gospel Jesus figure in no way discounts the relevance his earlier comment has to an interpretation of the gospel Jesus story and a search for early christian origins.

To seek to discard his quote on the base that he changed his mind regarding the gospel Jesus is shortsighted. Obviously, the quote presents serious questions for a historicist interpretation of the gospel Jesus figure. Consequently, historicists would seek to downplay any relevance Rabbi Wise's comment might have. Instead of such a negative approach perhaps historicists would do well to ask themselves why would Rabbi Wise make such a comment. What was it in the history of the Roman execution of Antigonus that made Rabbi Wise consider that there might be a connection to the gospel Jesus story ?

viewtopic.php?t=8099
Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

A thread, Stephen, you posted in................. :confusedsmiley:

Did not George Wells do something similar - moving from a Jesus myth to a Galilean preacher who was not crucified.

This Galilean Jesus was not crucified, and was not believed to have been resurrected after his death. The dying and rising Christ of the early epistles is a quite different figure, and must have a different origin. He may have been to some extent modelled on gods of pagan mystery religions who died and were resurrected,

Wells even goes on going to suggest that Paul's crucified figure could be based on past crucifixions under Jannaeus.

Paul may well have thought of his “Christ crucified” as one of the
victims of earlier rulers of the region. Josephus tells that
Antiochus Epiphanes, king of Syria in the second century
B.C., and the Hasmonean ruler Alexander Jannaeus, of the
first century B.C., both caused living Jews to be crucified in
Jerusalem.

Sources - the forum's search is available to you.....

As for the history of Antigonus on the gospel crucifixion story......


The Free Review

Edited by John M. Robertson
Vol. II
April to September 1894.

There is one more probable historical basis for a
detail in the Jesus myth . It is not credible that Paul's
Jesus , or any other , had been crucified as “ The King
of the Jews ” ; but we know from Dio Cassius that a
Jewish king, Antigonus, was scourged , crucified , and
afterwards put to death by the order of Mark Antony ,
before the Christian era . Such an act must needs have
made a profound impression on the Jewish people ;
even if it was not memorised for them by such a drama
as was spontaneously set up and preserved among the
Peruvians to commemorate the execution of the last
Inca ; and there is every reason to surmise that the
historic fact in regard to King Antigonus was woven
into the Jesuist myth
.

At one time, Wikipedia, made reference to this article: The reference to John Robertson has since been removed....


^ Josephus merely says that Marc Antony beheaded King Antigonus. Antiquities, XV 1:2 (8-9). Roman historian Dio Cassius says scouraged, crucified then put to death. See The University Magazine and Free Review, Volume 2 edited by John Mackinnon Robertson and G. Astor Singer (Nabu Press, 2010) at page 13. Merging the material from Josephus and Dio Cassius leads to the conclusion that Antigonus was scourged, crucified, and beheaded.

In a later publication, Pagan Christs, 1911, Robertson again referenced Antigonus:

The scourging and crucifixion of Antigonus, again, must have made a profound impression on the Jews; 2 and it is a historic fact that the similar slaying of the last of the Incas was kept in memory for the Peruvians by a drama annually acted. 3 It may be that the superscription "This is the King of the Jews," and even the detail of scourging, 4 came proximately from the story of Antigonus; though on the other hand it is not unlikely that Antony should have executed Antigonus on the lines of the sacrifice of the mock-king. But it is noteworthy that where the existing mystery-drama, which was doubtless a Gentile development from a much simpler form, introduces historical characters, it does so on the clear lines of sacrificial principle set forth in the ritual of the Khonds, where already the symbol of the cross is prominent in the fashion of slaying the victim. Though the Gentile hostility to the Jews 5 would dictate the special implication of the Jewish priests and people, and of King Herod as in the third gospel, the total effect is to make it clear that the guilt of the sacrifice rests on no one official, but is finally taken by the whole people upon them. Even the quotation put in the mouth of the dying God-Man, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" 6 has the effect of implying that he had hitherto suffered voluntarily. Thus does the ritual which was to grow into a world religion preserve in its consummated quasi-historical form the primeval principle that "one man should die for the people" by the people's will; and, as we have seen, not even in extending the benefit of the sacrifice to "all mankind" does the great historic religion outgo the religious psychology of the ancient Dravidians.

https://sacred-texts.com/bib/cv/pch/pch41.htm


Viewing the gospel figure as a composite figure (like James Bond) allows historical figures to have relevance - and consequently, allows for research into the early background of what became Christianity. A historical Jesus (of whatever variant) is a dead end.


Earl Doherty:
"I can well acknowledge that elements of several representative, historical figures fed into the myth of the Gospel Jesus, since even mythical characters can only be portrayed in terms of human personalities, especially ones from their own time that are familiar and pertinent to the writers of the myths."

Stephen, if a historical Jesus is your big issue - then state your case. My advice would be to research with a history book in hand - and to leave the rambling and ranting church fathers to the comfort of their historical Jesus delusion.

Statistics: Posted by maryhelena — Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:36 am



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